Kimberley Motley
/In this post, there is a list of the advanced words and phrases from the BBC Radio 4 Desert Island Discs interview with Kimberley Motley, an American attorney that has her own practice in Afghanistan. Aggie and I have created a podcast called Radio English (in which we explain some of the words).
You can listen to the original BBC interview here
You can listen to my interview below (it’s also on itunes and Castbox):
We explain these words in the interview:
pro bono
tainted
tangible
stutter
frankly
go off
A blow
conduct
shove
rock up
numb
abysmal
INTRODUCTION BY LL
Afghanistan
0:51 If you happen to be in Afghanistan and run into trouble
Her nickname, 911 - unofficial emergency service
1:04 pro bono services
First foreign litigator to practice in Afghanistan - one of the Most conservative male dominated cultures
1:20 Studied sharia
“Working the system from the inside out”
1:48 making ends meet as a public defender
Not that far her childhood dream - a DJ
“Laws are like songs to put on a playlist, you have to figure out which ones will make people dance when you go to court”
AFGHANISTAN LEGAL SYSTEM
2:16 I have to work out - What’s the beat of the court?
Fearlessly quoting Afghan laws, via translators
It’s a dance!
Have to communicate with the judges and the translators - what is my message
3:02 You call the judicial system there, tainted
Lot of people going to court without an attorney, which is their legal right in Afghanistan
3:21 A lot of women being railroaded in the system
People are always getting found guilty, very uneven system
My goal is to educate clients about what their rights are
It’s always a battle
4:23 The laws are very tangible, I feel them
Empower my clients
MUSIC IN PRE-COURT
For every case, I create a playlist
4:55 I have a signature song for that client
Get in the mood to fight on their behalf, Something I’ve always done!
FIRST DISC (A nightmare on my street)
5:16 I grew up in the projects
Sent to Catholic School
Given an assignment by teacher, asked to create a school song
5:45 Picked a white kid with a stutter
And the Italian kid, and I was a black Korean girl
5:58 The three of us were the misfits of the class
We thought we were like the Beastie Boys
KIMBERLEY’S PRACTICE
7:16 Tell me a bit more about your practice
Clients are a 70:30 mix between paying and pro bono
7:30 A client that really sticks out
A teenage Afghan girl who was raped by her cousin’s husband
5:53 Discovered she was pregnant but despite Doctor patient confidentiality he told the police
8:03 Arrested for adultery - For having the audacity to be raped (!)
She refused to marry her attacker - 8 year prison sentence
Forced marriage is illegal in both sharia and Afghan law
Reduced to 3 years
Her family wanted to kill her because she had put shame on the family
9:13 Put a pardon petition online
First woman to get a moral pardon
9:33 She was so vulnerable
Talking through traumatic experience
9:55 How do you process that? How do you feel?
10:05 I’m trying to dig and dig…
For many of my clients, this is the only way for them to get it out
10:32 But frankly that’s the information I need
used to show that you are being honest about something, even though people might not like what you are saying
I get sad, but I don’t get sad in front of my clients
→ Much more effective being angry than sad
SECOND DISC (Elton John)
Mother from N. Korea, Father from Louisiana
Mother is very secretive about past
First and only time I have seen my mother cry (listening to this song after her father died)
HOMETOWN
I know Milwaukee better than I know myself, although that doesn’t mean I have to like it
Black neighbourhood Low income
12:45 Everyone was on welfare
It was magical in a lot of ways
Growing up poor (hate saying that word) you get a greater imagination
Father was the only father in the neighbourhood and he was crazy
Everyone’s grass is communal, he would come
13:43 barrelling out the house
13:45 and he would go off on people
go off (on somebody)
We’re proud of this, our grass
PARENTS’ VALUES
Education, went to private schools, had tutors
Make us read encyclopedias at home, write book reports
14:39 Mother had an early version of a speed reader (speed reading machine)
14:49 All these spools of paper
THIRD DISC (I’m Bad)
My theme song when I was a little kid
Father hated that I liked rap
15:21 Most treasured item that I owned, Wonderwoman costume
Really wanted to go trick or treating
SCHOOL
School was great + interesting
Only 10 in each class
17:08 A very connected community, very middle class
Able to move in different types of people
Felt comfortable with it
Learnt English along with her mother
17:47 You were advocating for her from a young age
WELFARE
Had a job when I was 10 years old
On the paper route
Worked at Haagen Dasz
Making money to pay bills
PUBLIC DEFENDER
Lot of colleagues, this was their first experience of ‘poor’ people
18:49 Came in with a wealth of life experience
Understood what we were seeing, valuable
19:16 Being able to relate to clients
Client would come to them and say “He didn’t read me my rights”
19:24 The attorney would be very sceptical about that
FATHER’S LEGAL CASE
When Kimberley in teens, father lost case he’d been fighting since she was 2: Been fired after becoming disabled after a car accident but lost the case
Awareness of the injustice
Middle class before this happened
Father was so hopeful
20:23 Wrongful termination that they had terminated him based on his disability
20:32 And it was a big blow to him
Remember being sad, if he wins this case everything will turn back. Made me angry
Impact on choosing law?
Ran from it for a very long time → Wanting to be a DJ
TURNING POINT TO LAW
Didn’t see legal system working for people
Wasn’t allowed to watch TV
Teacher said he wanted us to watch Law and Order for an assignment
For the next 3 years I’d watch it like “my teacher said I have to” .. maybe that was it
FOURTH DISC (SUDDENLY I SEE)
22:13 Had the honour of meeting her a few months ago
22:24 One of those coming into your own songs
How I felt after I decided to go into the law
2008 BA AND MASTERS IN CRIMINAL JUSTICE
Husband, 3 kids, moved to N Carolina
State Department Scheme to train Afghan lawyers - financial decision
Making triple your salary
First time I left the US
MOVING TO AFGHANISTAN + ADVICE
I was expecting what you see on the news
24:00 bombs everywhere
Would’ve struggled to find it on a map
Ridiculous I was hired for that job
24:18 What advice were you given, how you should conduct yourself?
One of 3 women, 16 men
Told as women to cover ourselves, can’t dance, can’t look men in the eyes
It was ridiculous - no Afghans training us about the culture
You really think that a suicide bomber is going to run up to you and try and hug you
Understanding that we’re about to enter this world and be second class citizens
25:45 How much of that protocol did you adopt
Did none of it! It didn’t really feel right. Wasn’t doing it to be disrespectful
Didn’t wear a headscarf in court
HEADSCARF
Criticism that’s been received from non-muslim foreigners who work in Afghanistan
Certain things to be respectful - never wear shorts
AFGHAN LAWYERS REACTION
Been amazing
Its a team sport, translators, drivers
27:54 People who have been willing to teach me
Always been welcome
28:08 Interesting and open minded place to practice
FIFTH DISC (Dance wiv me Dizzee Rascal)
28:24 Hands down the Best parties I went to were in Afghanistan
I met the world in Afghanistan, all over the world at these parties
A beautiful thing to see, people from all parts of the world dancing
PRACTICE IN KABUL - WHY STAY
Contract with state department ended
29:50 You set up your own legal practice in Kabul
DIdn’t plan for it to be a practice
Met some British and S. African soldiers
30:51 They were trying to shove these pieces of paper to me
Reading their stories that night, tortured and abuse. Couldn’t leave that
Why don’t we use real life cases
31:27 I was immediately shut down
→ Didn’t believe in that programme anymore, people needed help
In the beginning, only representing foreigners for free!!
At that point, not comfortable to use Sharia Law. Unsure how it would be perceived as a foreigner using the Koran.
First foreign lawyer to observe court
33:07 I would just rock up at the prison and talk to people
CULTURE
33:18 One of the most corrupt countries
Best way to fight corruption is to not be corrupt
33:36 Lot of judges asking for a bribe
33:41 Best way to fight is to be super transparent
Write letters and file it when they’re asking for bribes
Last judge went to my translator - Do Americans pay bribes? “Not this one!”
SIXTH DISC (I see fire Ed Sheeran)
From the Hobbit soundtrack!
Used in my private time
34:49 Used to unwind conversations with my clients
DECADE IN AFGHANISTAN - WORRIES ABOUT SECURITY?
35:38 House was ransacked
Grenade thrown into house
Dangerous place to live - 74 people died per day in August according to BBC
A lot of people are suffering more than I am
36:09 Do you worry about becoming numb to the dangers?
unable to feel, think or react in the normal way
I think you kind of have to - can’t be terrified all the time
You have to live
FAMILY, HOME VS AFGHANISTAN
36:40 How much of what you’re facing do you choose to share with them?
Very selective with what I tell them
Upbringing was very helpful
This is just another bad neighbourhood
37:14 Keep your head on a swivel
37:25 How much of a process of decompression and recompression do you go through
Need a day to go back into the Western world
Don’t want to be super aggressive when I come back
37:56 It makes a person vulnerable to talk about this
38:11 It’s always entering one boxing ring or another
If you don’t wanna get hit then don’t be a boxer
AFGHAN LEGAL SYSTEM
In 2008, less than 100 Attorneys were licensed
10 years later, now over 2000!
More go to court to represent clients
Training women lawyers on DNA evidence, 10 years ago it was what the constitution says
39:35 It was abysmal back then
Still not great but better
SEVENTH DISC (Pump it)
Reminds me of my kids
40:05 Get them pumped up
Great song if your kids are in the car and they’re arguing
40:24 Just jack it up and they’ll stop
HUSBAND CLAUDE
41:18 Has your work in Afghanistan taken a toll
Changed our relationship, changed me in a lot of ways
Trust people more, but also not trust people more if that makes sense
Seen beautiful things:
41:49 When people step up to the plate
Taking the shirts off their back to give my client clothes
DIFFERENT COUNTRIES
42:15 Expanded your remit
Work in Ghana, Uganda, UAE
42:26 Part of my work is being immersed in cultures
Responsibility to help and protect people with the law
That’s my superpower!
43:08 Such a wonderful compliment that people trust me
POLITICS
I just feel like I’m doing exactly what I’m supposed to be doing
Politicians are so disappointing
Maybe 20 years from now I’ll change my mind. Feel most effective now
EIGHTH DISC (DNA Kendrick Lamar)
My war song
44:21 This is my jam
OFF TO THE ISLAND
I feel pretty good, have my imagination
Book: 1984 George Orwell
Book I always travel with
45:22 It would stand the tests of time
Would choose solar powered boat but that;s not playing the game
Luxury: business card holder with a mirror inside. Picture of 3 children smiling and laughing on the cover
Chosen disc: Pump it